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JoZeF
Grave Digger
Joined: 25 May 2007
Posts: 1734
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 Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:10 pm Post subject: Visa Piston compatibility |
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| ami8i wrote: | Hello Robin,
sorry for hitchiking your thread but there are 2 open question for some weeks/months.
I see you're in contact with PP Andre + have experience with Visa engine parts mixing.
I'd like to increase compression ratio of my 9.0 V06/630 engine. My dream would be ~10.0:1 (for E85 use). I think to buy a pair of PP 9.6 visa pistons C7110. The website http://www.pp-2cv.be/FR/News/Boutique%20reparation%20moteur%20.htm seems to say (I can't read/write french) that those pistons are not possible in 630 engines. Is this correct? I can't see/understand why? AFAIK the piston geometry is the same for all Visa but only the hole at the piston top differs to reach different compression rates.
If the pistons would work in a 630 engine - is it possible to shorten the cylinder to come from 9.6 to ~10.0? Calculation would say ~0.4mm. Does PP Andre know if this is possible? Maybe with slight head modifications to avoid hitting!
Would be really fine if you (or another member) could ask him to verify my concept. It's not possible to get English replies by PP.
Thank you very much.
Horst |
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Last edited by JoZeF on Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JoZeF
Grave Digger
Joined: 25 May 2007
Posts: 1734
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| backfire wrote: | | They can't be used in first generation cilinders, because first generation cilinder is longer then second and third generation and has o-ring seals in stead of aluplate seal. PS 944 cilinders with pistons are 9,5 compression. |
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ami8i
Snailer
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 80
Location: Austria (Graz)
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:10 am Post subject: |
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Hello backfire,
thank you for reply.
Is (late cylinders plus aluplate seal) < (early cylinders only)?
I think no - I think the distnce is equal.
Early cylinders are 99,5mm high and late cylinders are 98.5mm high. I guess 98.5mm without aluplate seal.
I know only this picture from PP catalogue.
I know that 9.5 pistons have got a smaller hole/lens on top of the piston head. I heard that people put 9.5 pistons (V06/644) in 9.0 engines (630) - but I don't know if they swapped the 9.5 cylinders too.
Would be fine if you or anyone here could sort out this imprortant question. :) (I' need' more compression for E85 use)
Thanks
»Horst
PS:
Sorry JoZeF, hadn't thought that a forum dealing with >80% illegal modifications is so strictly in clean threads/rules. 
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backfire
Dropped
Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 346
Location: NL, 's-Hertogenbosch
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:20 am Post subject: |
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Hi Ami8i, I have 644 engine with 630 cam, but maybe engine case is different between 630 version 1 and 630 version 2? Because PP is talking about 630 version 2 and 644 version 3 engine? Or maybe the cilinder head has changed somewhat? But I don´t see problem, I use 630 cilinders version 2 with cilinder heads from 644 and extra 2 mm alu seal (I need 1:7 compression).
If you are going for e85, install turbo, then compression is spot on  
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JoZeF
Grave Digger
Joined: 25 May 2007
Posts: 1734
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| ami8i wrote: |
Sorry JoZeF, hadn't thought that a forum dealing with >80% illegal modifications is so strictly in clean threads/rules. |
Hmm... it's 100% illegal in the country I live in...
And modifying doesn't mean doing shit jobs, so we don't need a shit forum with threads any/every where. Seems simple enough to me. 
thanks
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"That bumper fits there like sunglasses on pig" O.E.
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ami8i
Snailer
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 80
Location: Austria (Graz)
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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Hello backfire,
I have heard sometimes that people combine also 630 engine with 644 pistons (cylinders?). But I don't know if they measure/calculate comperession caused on different engine block sizes and/or cylinder heights.
As I understand PP description + note the engine blocks are the same but cylinders and pistons were changed over the years.
I don't want to spend 130 € for a set of pistons which will not achieve a compression of 9.6. Unfortunality it isn't easy to get a meaningful reply by PP Andre.  (I'm not able to write/read French). But I heard even French emails were not replied.
This days I got an offer of OEM 9.5 pistons. I guess they will work with my early 630 block+cylinders.
But I'd prefer brand new 9.6 pistons. :)
Installing a turbo setup is far out of my possibilities - I've got no garage. And it's really hard to make engine compartment OEM 32hp looking. 
»Horst
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backfire
Dropped
Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 346
Location: NL, 's-Hertogenbosch
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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Horst also cam shaft has changed over the years and the cilinder heads. I wish I could help you with PP, but I know he is not eager to respond to mail. Only option is to visit him with someone wo speaks his language. Did you ask 2cvparts.co.uk? Maybe they or someone there knows.
We are lucky in NL that we are allowed to change engine with 40% more power output Max. But because my 2cv is original 29HP that only leaves me with 40HP. Although that should be more than enough for 560KG 2cv, that´s more per KG then my standard Hyundai Getz.
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ami8i
Snailer
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 80
Location: Austria (Graz)
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| backfire wrote: | | also cam shaft has changed over the years and the cilinder heads. |
Hello backfire,
at least I know 2 families of Visa cam shaft: Good 630 and boring 644, 665. Frank, a German MegaSquirter with 2CV+Visa665+Turbo+MS measured various camshafts (2CV, stp...) and 2 V06/665 which were rather different.
Jeroen Cats told me that some (e.g. my 630) Visa heads had 'hidden' spark plug gaps. I guess combustion chamber/shape was the same over the years, just the sealing edges changed (depend on cylinder generation)
| backfire wrote: | | Only option is to visit him with someone wo speaks his language. |
An Austrian 2CV friend of mine visted him after Hupple trophy (B), this days he attends a French spoken 2CV raid in Tunesia http://www.raiddesbaroudeurs.com/ - maybe he can come in contact with anyone nearby PP.
| backfire wrote: | | Did you ask 2cvparts.co.uk? Maybe they or someone there knows. |
I have seen this website long time ago, but based on this 'stay boring' site http://www.2cvparts.co.uk/2cv_tuning.htm I didn't visit often. " A full fuel injection system will be available shortly!" has sounded promising for YEARS. :)
Do they sell PP items? Searching for 'Visa' I got some common parts. Who should I ask there? Webmaster, shop...?
| backfire wrote: | | we are allowed to change engine with 40% more power output Max. |
I guess I'm not far away of 32hp*1.40=45hp with 'simple' natural aspirated MPI conversion. :)
My heavy 740kg Ami8i Break feels significantly more tired than the 1000kg BX14ie Break. :) But cruising is my favourite driving style so it's ok.
»Horst
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robin2cv
Dropped
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 144
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: |
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hey Horst its possibel to cut a bit of your cillinders sow the compression will be higher. Than you can choose the compression and I think its cheap.
Is this a possibility for you?
Robin |
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ami8i
Snailer
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 80
Location: Austria (Graz)
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 9:28 am Post subject: |
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Hello Robin,
yes I know shorting the cylinder would be a simple solution, but I have no (easy) access to a lathe.
I'd like to achieve a compression of 10.0...10.5 --> 9.5 by pistons and 0.5...0.9mm off the bottom of early 630 cylinder (without piston valve/head edge touching - otherwise a little bit Dremel grinding would be required). I hope thumb engine silicone is good enough to prevent an oil loosing engine. :)
In this moment I have an idea why PPs 9.6 piston requires Genration 2 and 3 cylinders. Maybe the 9.0 piston head is just modified to prevent touching the edge of cylinder head and 9.6 compression is reached by removing the alu plate seal? Originally I thought PP weld on some Aluminum and polish a nice surface.
»Horst
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ami8i
Snailer
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 80
Location: Austria (Graz)
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Visa snails,
I have the chance to get used OEM 9.5 (644) pistons. Unfortunality one oil scraper ring is broken. Is it possible to replace this with a used one of an early 9.0 (630) engine?
Does anyone know a source where I can get a set of new 9.5 (644) piston rings? Are they different to 630/664/665?
The PP qestion relating the reason why C7110 http://www.pp-2cv.be/FR/News/Boutique%20reparation%20moteur%20.htm seem not to suit to early 630 cylinders (O ring, no alu plate at bottom) is also open....
»Horst
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robin2cv
Dropped
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 144
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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I did mine rings new 2 years ago. If you cant find them then its possibel I buy them for you and send them to you
robin |
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backfire
Dropped
Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 346
Location: NL, 's-Hertogenbosch
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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i bought mine at lepatron when I rebuilded my engine. No problem to find new ones. But piston type is important.
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ami8i
Snailer
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 80
Location: Austria (Graz)
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Robin,
thank you for yur offer. Who was the dealer? Maybe it's possible also to get them directly. What did you pay for them?
Hello backfire,
thanks for the hint I'm not able to find Visa piston rings at http://www.lepatron.nl (can't read Netherlands too). :(
I found out that there are (at least?) 2 types of piston rings sets:
1,75mm - 2mm - 4mm or 1,5mm - 2mm - 3mm.
One guy told me that he got the 1,5-2-3mm set for his 9.0 pistons (630 or 664??).
»Horst
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robin2cv
Dropped
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 144
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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Don't now What they Cost.
I can Ask It but not tommorow Because teh stores are not open.
Its just a store for carparts.
I now there where origenal from citroen and ones who are not I took the original ones the costed a bit more.
I let you now
Robin |
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