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Ammeter fitting.

 
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Brooky
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Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Posts: 115
Location: North Devon, England

PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:36 pm    Post subject: Ammeter fitting. Reply with quote

I do hope this isn't a stupid question!
I want to fit an ammeter to my 1984 2cv. Am I right in thinking that I could fit it, in series, into the wire that feeds the ignition warning light?
Or am I being too simplistic? Embarassed
Brooky.
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Malte
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Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 534
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there are two different ways to gauge the the current ?!

i just know something about the most common way.


Voltage can be gauged by connecting a voltmeter to the battery
( parallel circuit ) ( ok, that's easy! )

Current can be gauged by putting an amperemeter in the circuit.
the current need's to flow through the amperemeter.
( connection in series )

You want to install an Amperemeter because you want to know if your Battery is charging or not. So you need to put it between the battery + and the + battery clamp ( which is normally at the battery+ ).
If your battery is loading the current flows from your "clamp" through the ammeter to your battery. The ammeter indicator should shake to the right.

If you, for example, listen to music while you engine is turned of, the current flows from the battery throught the ammeter to the "clamp" where your radio is connected.
The ammeter indicator should shake to thr left!

It is really really important that you use cables which are big enough!
I would use 10 mm² for a 30 amp generator.
( but i think thats oversized for short cables?!)



äähm, or do you want to install a standart 2cv-volt-meter?
the one which is in the neweer 2cv-"dashboards"?
this one isn't really an ammeter, it's a voltmeter?!
just connect it to ground and ignition+ !

:)
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Brooky
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Joined: 22 Feb 2008
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Location: North Devon, England

PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Malte,
Thanks for all that info. You're right, all I want to know is exactly what the alternator is doing. I know there is the ignition warning light to tell me when the charging system has failed completely but it is also possible that the output from the alternator can deteriorate slowly, for example, when the alternator brushes begin to wear out. My Dad had an ammeter on his '66 with a dynamo but I can't remember how he had it wired in.
The method of connection you describe will work I'm sure, but it does need some pretty heavy gauge wiring and I'd rather avoid that if possible.
I've got somebody else looking into this problem as well so I'll let you know what they find out.
But thank you again for your advice, it's much appreciated.
Brooky.
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dyanut
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Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 177
Location: North Yorkshire

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brooky,
what drugs are you on, young fellow?

First of all, there is no ignition warning light on an '84 2CV. However, there is an oil pressure warning light and if this comes on whilst you're driving, it's telling you that the engine is about to expire.

As regards ammeters and voltmeters, the rule is that an ammeter is appropriate for checking the charging rate on a car fitted with a dynamo, whereas a voltmeter is what should be used on any vehicle with an alternator.
Nice and simple... Wink

Ken.
(One of these would do the job, probably available at your local motor factor...
< http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LED-BATTERY-ALTERNATOR-TESTER-FOR-TRACTOR-PLANT-QUAD_W0QQitemZ310106816470QQihZ021QQcategoryZ121876QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem >



Brooky wrote:
Hi Malte,
Thanks for all that info. You're right, all I want to know is exactly what the alternator is doing. I know there is the ignition warning light to tell me when the charging system has failed completely but it is also possible that the output from the alternator can deteriorate slowly, for example, when the alternator brushes begin to wear out. My Dad had an ammeter on his '66 with a dynamo but I can't remember how he had it wired in.
The method of connection you describe will work I'm sure, but it does need some pretty heavy gauge wiring and I'd rather avoid that if possible.
I've got somebody else looking into this problem as well so I'll let you know what they find out.
But thank you again for your advice, it's much appreciated.
Brooky.
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Brooky
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Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Posts: 115
Location: North Devon, England

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ken.
No drugs I'm afraid. They don't work any more (sic). Well I'll be damned!
I could have sworn it was an ignition light. Ah well, you live and learn.
All I want is an on-board, minute-by-minute, at-a-glance indication that my alternator is doing it's job. Surely if it's possible with a dynamo, why can't it be done with an ACR alternator. I don't like battery condition meters. They don't tell you the instant your generator has packed up or that your alternator belt has broken, just that your battery is slowly going flat! Mad
Brooky.
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dyanut
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Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 177
Location: North Yorkshire

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Brooky,
but even if you did fit an ammeter, you'd still have to look at it to notice that the needle had swung from 'charge' to 'discharge', surely?

With one of those led gizmos (which attach themselves quite neatly to the demist duct on the dash) there are usually 5 leds glowing when everything is working fine.
If the alternator belt snaps, or something else goes wrong with the charging system, the upper two leds will go out almost immediately.
Same with a conventional voltmeter, the voltage shown would drop from the required 14.4 to 12, especially if you're driving at night which is when electrical faults prefer to manifest themselves. Laughing

If you're set on having an 'idiot light' though, one route is to fit a two pot Visa alternator and duplicate its warning light/field excitation set up, as discussed on this forum recently.

As an aside, maybe worth mentioning that our two pot Visa is the only one of our fleet which has ever suffered a flat battery.
The three Dyanes and the 2CV all have voltmeters, so one will be added to the Visa this w/e... Cool

Ken.



Brooky wrote:
Hi Ken.
No drugs I'm afraid. They don't work any more (sic). Well I'll be damned!
I could have sworn it was an ignition light. Ah well, you live and learn.
All I want is an on-board, minute-by-minute, at-a-glance indication that my alternator is doing it's job. Surely if it's possible with a dynamo, why can't it be done with an ACR alternator. I don't like battery condition meters. They don't tell you the instant your generator has packed up or that your alternator belt has broken, just that your battery is slowly going flat! Mad
Brooky.


Last edited by dyanut on Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:22 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Jasu
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Joined: 30 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



So, You want something like in this photo..? There is voltmeter (upper) and ammeter (lower).

Make connections to ammeter so one wire comes from battery to meter and from meter to all other places expect startmotor...

Maybe it is easier to draw picture than try to explain it..?
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Brooky
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Jasu,
Yes please! If you can draw the circuit for a simple idiot like myself, that would be excellent. I admit, I'm having a hard time picturing a wire going to all the other electrical components!
Confused
Brooky.
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Jasu
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Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Posts: 211
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


Original


Ammeter fitted



This is how I have made connections every time, and they worked always... The ammeter is measuring current what is going to the battery or out of the battery. When engine is running, and alternator is working well, alternator supplies all electrical equipment and ammeter should show 0 amps... Of course that happens only after a while, especially after starting...

And at idle, alternator cannot charge "enough" when lights and brake lights are on (and my Dyane, because there is much more electrical stuff, fuel pump, heated lambda etc), and maybe wipers, ammeter is maybe -10 to -15 amps... Its not dangerous, its quite normal, it will get back when raising up revs..!
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Brooky
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Jasu,
That's brilliant! Just what I need. I didn't know such a diagram existed. I have a copy of the first diagram but the second one is new to me.
It looks very simple to wire in. Do you think a 30-0-30 ammeter will be good enough to cope with the maximum possible output from the alternator?
I don't know what the amperage rating is for a standard Ducellier alternator.
Thanks again mate. Perfect!
Brooky. Very Happy
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Jasu
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That second picture is made by me, so it didn't exist before yesterday... Cool

Standard Ducellier alternator makes 25 amps, so 30 30-0-30 meter is enough. I have tested this old Yazaki over 40 amps and it can handle it well... But I had some (in fact 3 pieces of them, dealer replaced, after third I didn't want anymore) cheap meter with 60 amp rating what totally burned with 25 amp alternator...
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Jomo602
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have a voltmeter fitted on my 85 special, its wired upto the brake fluid warning switch, goes off when you press it!

my regulator needs slighly adjusting though



hehe my little corgi dolly on my gearstick Very Happy
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ami8i
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,
recently I found this http://www.mini-cooper-clubman.de/html/body_kontaktloses_amperemeter.html . Looks very promising because it does not require fat unfused (dangerous) cables through firewall. The circuit provides just a voltage [VDC] proportional current [A]: 0A...2.5VDC, 5V...+xVDC; 0V....-xVDC Either a voltage panel or a simple DMM.
I haven't tested the circuit so I don't know how to calibrate.
»Horst
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Malte
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Joined: 11 Dec 2007
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Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is really cool and much more easy and secure than an old-school amperemeter.

but i'm thinking about how to show what you have measured..

you will need voltmeter up to 5 v ?! with a scale which show 0 at 2,5 volt.

and the scale needs to be really precise.

and ther is another questen: at how much A does it show what ?!
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