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Lowering... a few questions for the racers...
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JoZeF
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Joined: 25 May 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:20 pm    Post subject: Lowering... a few questions for the racers... Reply with quote

Hi

So, we all know the cheap 'n easy way to lower a 2cv...

I have a few question about springs, shock absorbers etc...

Geoff said that if uprated springs were fitted, anti rollbars weren't necessary...

However, I would be interested to know if it were possible to somehow prevent the 2cv from going up and down to much, as it bounces down the road...

Of couse, racing 2cvs are driven on smooth tracks (well, more or less)

Any advice ? uprated springs ? uprated shocks ? chassis reinforcement ? what would you guys advise on the limit in chassis to road clearance, for road use ?

My 54 is going to be started soon, and I want to it to "scrape" the road Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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champy2k
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Joined: 02 Jul 2007
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Location: uk

PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what suspension are you running on the car??
on std springs the lower the car the softer the suspension works, due to the leverage and motion of the suspension pick ups
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JoZeF
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Geoff

Not running anything yet.

My plan is to fit my 1954 A body on a 2CV6/Dyane 6 chassis... because of the small suspension pots (don't want to cut up my shell, it's in mint original condition). Besides, I can have harder springs made to the same diameter as the 2cv ones, so...

My aim is to slam the chassis to the ground, can't (won't) channel the body, so it's got to get down there somehow... Laughing

That's when all the problems arise...

Laughing

So, if I go by what you said, harder springs will give less up an down motion ? what shock absorbers do racers run ? I've got SPAX adjustable units on the back of my Bond Bug, was wondering whether having some made to fit the 2cv chassis would be worth it (bump and rebound stiffness fully adjustable on SPAX units)

It's basically a question of getting it low and making it stay there, I have a great sense of humour but cracking the oil sump because of a boucny car is probably my limit Wink

Am I dreaming or is it possible ?

cheers mate (got to keep the forum alive while they've all buggered off to sweden Laughing)
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Shedspeed
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Location: kent, England

PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spax list (well, they did a couple of years back, not sure now) 2cv dampers in their catalogue, also i think Avo make them too, and possibly Gaz.
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JoZeF
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok Mate.

I guess if they listed them at some point it wouldn't be too difficult to get them to make some if they no longer do...

What about the rest of the chassis ?

Cheers

Joseph
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JoZeF
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey

just looked on their websites, they are still listed for 2cv6 @ :

£64.99 ea inc.vat from SPAX

£52,5 ea + vat from AVO

Can't find a price online from GAZ

Bye
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2cvracer
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Joined: 05 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

on my race car we ran 2500 pound springs with helper springs, standard rate is 800 front,900 rear. I agree with geoff in that if the springs are stiff enough you won't need a roll bar.We never ran one. A roll bar will do its job but it is a compromise,it's there because on road cars you can not make the springs stiff enough to stop roll because you need ride quaility. The down side of a roll bar is that it wants to lift the inside wheel when cornering hard (even on a 2cv).
2000 pound springs will still be useable on the road but obviously the ride will suffer but hey, who cares, we're low and cool!
I personally don't like Avo shocks as we have had a lot of problems with them (and Spax,Leda,monroe etc) I have used standard shock absorbers for racing, for years, that i have drilled,removed the original oil and refilled with a gearbox oil (EP80 or 90), this means that they will work properly on the car but be 40/50/60/70% uprated, chose how much by the thickness of the oil. very cheap and easy to do and if you scrape one because the car is low, so what? make another.
You really need to think about the caster angle on the arms when lowering as well, they are almost undriveable with out it. Geoff has a jig to make the arms with the correct camber, with this done, uprated springs and a bit of camber the car will handle brilliantly.

PS
can someone tell me how to post pictures
cheers
Pete
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JoZeF
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hiya Pete

Thanks for the very interesting input !

When you say you've drilled shocks and refilled with thicker oil... how do you then go about closing them again ? you add a screw or grease nipple or something like that ?

cheers
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2cvracer
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is for modifying standard 2cv/Ami oil filled shock NOT Gas filled ones.
If you look and a standard shock, most types i think, you will find a marking on top of the shock that says top (Haut) and a 'dimple', drill a hole near here (about 20mm from the dimple on the same plane, it must be on the top) with a pilot drill then go up to about 8mm wide. Don't worry there is no internal pressure inside 2cv shocks. Drain the oil into a container so that you can measure how much comes out. 'work' the shock backwards and forwards until you have got as much oil out as possible and there is no more resistance to movement. measure the oil removed and get the same amount plus a small amount extra for spills etc ready to go back in. They don't mind a bit of extra oil as long as the shock can be fully compressed and there is a small gap for expansion of the oil.
Then clean the area around the drain hole so that it can be welded, i use MIG, gas welding will damage the internals. you need to be able to weld to a good standard as the weld has to be fluid tight. Remove where possible any surface coating on the nut you are using. Next, get a 8mm nut and an 8mm bolt (approx 15-20mm long) and put the nut on the bolt and lay the bolt into the drain hole so that there is a small amount of thread in the shock to make it sit squarely on the shock body. Tack the nut where it meets the shock body, when you have the nut/bolt straight, weld round keeping the heat of the weld more on the nut than on the body of the shock, get the weld as fluid as you can round the base of the nut. Cool the shock quickly but do not too quickly, MIG heat is normally localised and i have never yet damaged a shock due to heat.
Remove the bolt when cool and find copper washer (or 2 if they are thin) that are a good fit around the stem of the bolt. As you hold the bolt, first place a plain washer (a good thick one to stop it distorting) up against the head of the bolt and then the copper one after this. Clean the head of the nut that will make the mating surface with the copper washer.
Next find something (i use an oil can) to start putting the oil back into the shock, it will be best to have the shock tilted so that your filling hole is at the top, filling is a very SLOW job, you must try and work the shock as you put the oil in, as you do you will start to feel some resistance coming back. do this untill you have used all your oil and you have a solid movement backwards and forwards and you can feel no air in the shock.
once done put your sealing bolt into the nut you welded to the shock making sure the surface is clear from debris. It should be nut - copper washer - steel plain washer - bolt.
Clean the shock off with brake cleaner or petrol and dry off (don't SMOKE!!!), turn the shock upside down, work it untill your arms feel like they are going to fall off and then check for leaks. sometimes it can take a couple of goes to seal the nut. if all is ok and you are really sad you may paint the shock to match your car or just do it black.
Once back on the car, make sure the suspension feels good (and stiffer) and check that everything is done up and tight.
now ROAD TEST.
I have a set of these on my road 2cv which have been on for 6 years and still work perfectly with no leaks. used with uprated springs and modified camber and caster settings (i also use Smart car 145's) the car is very fast in the corners.
i hope this has covered all the points you need to know. Just make sure you are capable of doing the job before you start or better still try on an old shock before doing your own car. the best option is to get a mate to do it and by him a few beers.
I would say they take an hour each to do if there are no problems.
OIL GUIDE
EP W75 - uprated but ok for standard springs
EP W80 - Hard on standard springs or slightly modified
EP W90 - Hard for Modified springs
EP W140 - Very,very hard, track use only

you can of course mix the oil to get the grade that suits best.

regards
Pete
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JoZeF
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shocked

Amazing...

Very clear instructions indeed, Pete Wink

So, uprated springs, modified arms, PTS shocks Laughing

And go !


thanks
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Shedspeed
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im going to have me a go at that! Gotta get to Geoffs some time and do our arms too.....
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Neil
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Joined: 03 Jul 2007
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Location: Cornwall UK

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow!! Shocked

Takes Pete ages to post something, then when he finally does POW!!! he turns out a cracking post like the above!!

Wink Neil
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JoZeF
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must say I have to agree with the previous statement...

Shocked
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Bart
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Joined: 17 Jun 2007
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Location: Södertälje

PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Pete,
great to "see" you here, I hope all is well & thanks for the posts, some question came up reading them.
A pound is your english weight unit I suppose (just found on the net that 1 pound = 0,4536 kg for us Europeans Wink) and the spring stiffness is expersed in pounds/weight per cm spring compression???
On the dampers, I thought you had a set of special spax dampers on the racecar, did you get fed up with them and went back to the old trick with gearbox oil? Anyway, what is not 100% clear to me is: do you put as much oil in the damper as possible or the same amount as you get out? I always though that free stroke of a damper (so no damping at all + bad handeling) was caused by air which is in the damper or gets into it because some oil leaks out somewhere...

Oh and last but not least, how can you seriously say "if you are really sad you may paint the shock" since you have the most shine racing car as well 4x4 of everybody... Wink

Sorry!

Are you going to the International? When, we'll see one another there.

Take care and all the best, Bart

p.s. when you'd like to place pictures, you first have to place them some where on the internet in a webalbum and than you can post the link to the picture in between these signs [img] [/img] which you obtain by pressing the "Img" botton above where you write your post. Hope this is clear .
For Example: , just picked the link from the website of the racing club.
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SamClukkers
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Joined: 23 Jun 2007
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Location: Belgium

PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Jozef,

I'd like to see that '54 now it's still original! (Yes, purist when it comes to 375's Wink ) Is it complete and running?

Thanks!

Sam
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