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Using Visa (652) bellhousing on GS gearbox
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Olli
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure about those things you are asking but can you get brakes on LN box?

-Olli
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Joolz
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes brakes are no trouble, some LNA boxes have holes with threads ready for brakes, mine does. GS calipers will bolt straight on I think, but the discs will not because it has 2cv type drive shaft bolts with equal spacing. I will have to change something.
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Olli
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Use GS disks then, you will go extra powerfull brakes. I do have GS brakes whit 2cv LHM cylinder and it works well.

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ami8i
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Joolz and all,
I see now and then some careless use of LN and LNA 'branding':

LN:
602ccm, differential ratio 4.375, bell housing without sensor holes, lloks old fasioned - narrow.

LNA:
652ccm, diff 4.125, Visa Club bell housing


Axel gearboxes are much too long for 2 cylinder 2CVs --> LN is the way to go. If engine is rather strong LNA box would also work.

AFAIK the clutch is part of the engine and not part of the gear box. Lucklily 2 and 4 cylinder engines could be mixed with 2 and 4 cylinder egear boxes (some mods are required).

I checked LN/LNA (I guess 630 genaration) workshop manual, each technical data is the same between LN and LNA! There are some measurements but no clutch diameter.

I have no idea about clutch qualities/types, I guess Jeroen Cats said at http://www.cats-citroen.net/ (tuning section) something about clutches too. I'd try to contact the 2CV racing guys.

I shortened bellhousing ~2mm and any part (I guess a spring) of the clutch scratched on the housing. 1mm is ok.

Yes GS/GSA brakes fit to LN/LNA gear boxes if holes and threads are made. Otherwise you could machine them (carefully).
If you'd need adapters for 2CV crank shaft I could offer you them:
http://megasquirt-de.serviceline.ch/success/user0001/GSAmiSuper-2CV-Adapter0001.htm

┬╗Horst
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Joolz
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Horst, thanks for reply,

I have the LNA gearbox, it has a bellhousing like a visa with holes for flywheel sensors and it has mountings for calipers with threads from the factory.
I have three clutches, 2CV, LNA, and AXEL. 2CV and LNA are the same (nearly) and 160mm diameter. The AXEL clutch is 180mm diameter and has different center splines for input shaft.
Is it that all 2 cylinder clutches are similar, and all 4 cylinder clutches are similar? Because I want to use a 4 cylinder clutch (180mm) with a 2 cylinder gearbox (LNA).
Has anybody fitted a 4 cylinder engine onto a LNA bellhousing?
I want to find a strong clutch to fit with LNA gearbox shaft, maybe I should ask Geoff(champy) directly, he does not seem to be here recently.

Brakes is a problem for the future, I have no GS calipers, so I might use 2CV calipers with an adapter bracket and look in the scrapyard for some big disks that I can drill to match the LNA driveshaft bolts. But that is for later, there is no point to worry about stopping if you are not going!
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JoZeF
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Joined: 25 May 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My name's Joseph Laughing Laughing Laughing

I think you're getting a bit mixed up with this setup you're planning.

Visa/LNA/AMI Super/GS flywheel are interchangeable, because the Visa crank has 6 bolts... this means you can fit an AMI Super/GS/GSA flywheel to a Visa...

the AMI/GS clutch is bigger...

So, I think that is interesting... with a visa engine. OR with a 602 engine block machined to host a Visa crank, that becomes even more interesting.


LN is a 2cv engine so nothing really different I don't think.


What exactly is the setup you're planning ?
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Joolz
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jozef/Joseph!

I don't have a collection of old citroen parts to look at to see what fits, but you guys are a big help.

I think(hope) that my engine will have too much power for a-type gearbox, so I am using G-type box.

I was going to join a GS box to a VISA bellhousing(because visa bellhousing is shortest and has the starter in a good place for my engine). Then I find that some LNA boxes have threads to mount calipers on so there is no need to join GS and VISA parts.

Because I am using a LNA bellhousing I must use a LNA/VISA input shaft and this shaft only fits with 2-cylinder clutch(160mm). I think Olli found the same problem, which is why he has a VISA flywheel and clutch on his GS engine. I wanted to use a bigger clutch but can't find one that fits with the LNA gearbox input shaft.
As you say, you can fit AMI Super/GS/GSA flywheel to a VISA engine, but you can not use big clutch with VISA bellhousing so you lose the starter

I am not completely sure of the last bit, the guy in the scrapyard said that 2cv and LNA clutches were the same and I have an AXEL clutch that has a different center to 2cv, I guess that all the 4-cylinder(180mm) clutches AXEL/GS/AMI SUPER have the same center, so none can be used with LNA gearbox shaft.

I think I have just about worked out what I am doing, but I still hope that someone will tell about me a big clutch that will fit with LNA gearbox input shaft.

But I don't tell anyone exactly what I'm planning untill I know it works. Wink

joolz
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ami8i
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Joined: 29 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Joolz,
I have/had no 4 cylinder engine and no 4 cylinder clutch so I'm not able to support your idea with datas.
Joolz wrote:
Has anybody fitted a 4 cylinder engine onto a LNA bellhousing?
An Austrian 2CV friend connected a 133ccm GSA engine with 2 CV6 gear box, which is more strange than your plan, check the amazing result (2nd car!): http://www.relativity.at/photos_moritz/files/Movie1.WMV
Unfortunality this guy is currently off-line most of the time - but I sent him an email.
I know that 602ccm and 652ccm flywheels are not interchangeable (tested) so I wonder if GS/GSA/Axel engines should have the same flywheel mountings like Visa652ccm engine.


Ami Super (big enough for GS clutch) bell housing is shorter than Visa/LN/LNA.
It was tricky to remove the damned clamp/spring which fixes the drive shaft without the correct tool (for me), but it's no big deal to mix various bell housings PLUS drive shafts.


I guess it's no problem in your country to get cheap GS callipers which would provide more braking forces than 2CVs. If your 2CV is a DOT type you have to look for Axel callipers ore sealants. I'm going to sell my Axel brakes soon --> the new owner could send you the unused DOT sealants.


The limit for a A type box is torque - not power. :)


Don't hesitate to tell us your plans in details, we're really interested in. If your plan is crazy, nearly all of the people here would love you! If it is 'boring' somebody has done it before. :)

╗Horst, noisy
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Joolz
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Joined: 07 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joolz wrote:
Has anybody fitted a 4 cylinder engine onto a LNA bellhousing?
I see now that Olli has done this,(LNA and VISA bellhousings are the same) but he had to use a small type clutch from the visa, I hoped to find a way with a big clutch

ami8i wrote:
An Austrian 2CV friend connected a 133ccm GSA engine with 2 CV6 gear box, which is more strange than your plan, check the amazing result (2nd car!): http://www.relativity.at/photos_moritz/files/Movie1.WMV

Wow everybody should watch that. I thought it was supposed to be impossible to roll a 2cv. He needs to lower it for safety! But how many gearboxes has he broken with this set up?

ami8i wrote:
I know that 602ccm and 652ccm flywheels are not interchangeable (tested) so I wonder if GS/GSA/Axel engines should have the same flywheel mountings like Visa652ccm engine.
Yes, Olli has a visa flywheel on a 4-cylinder engine.

ami8i wrote:
Ami Super (big enough for GS clutch) bell housing is shorter than Visa/LN/LNA.

Yes Ami super bellhousing is usefull, but I don't think it has a place for the starter, I think the starter is on top of the left side cylinders on all 4-cylinder motors (someone please say if I am wrong).
If AMI Super and VISA bellhousings were the same length then the answer would be VISA bellhousing with AMI shaft into AMI/GS clutch, but you say the AMI is shorter, do you know how much?

GS parts are not so common in britain but I am sure I can find some when I'm in France, my car is LHM so no probs there.

joolz
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mateo
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



not finish...
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Jasu
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



I made this in somewhere between 1996-1997 and its still on road... Little more compression, better exhaust, Visa bellhouse, GSA 4-speed gearbox... And with Dyane it took in 4th speed 7500rpm, calculated speed with 135/15 tires was 173km/h... Quite nice it was to ride, 7cm ground clearance at front...

Everybody told at that time it is impossible to put these parts together..!
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later
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a new question, so, I pray for the information:
How much should be thick this ring?



Width space between driveshafts (i'm not sure for name) on "A" gearboxes is 35cm, while on "G" gearboxes is 29cm, and therefore I think to the ring could be 25mm width, or Question
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Jasu
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

later wrote:
Width space between driveshafts (i'm not sure for name) on "A" gearboxes is 35cm, while on "G" gearboxes is 29cm, and therefore I think to the ring could be 25mm width, or Question


35cm-29cm=6cm => 30mm each. 25mm is good, I think I had 25mm and there was no problem with them...
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later
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

huuh I disregarded, it should be 34cm Very Happy

Thnx Jasu.
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ami8i
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello later,
Jasus calculation is correct (from theory, I don't know the measurements by heart).

If you lower the car it would make sense to make the plates more narrow. Otherwise I wouldn't recomend this, because you can loose them passing 'sleeping policemen' and cornering hard.

Pay attention to pick up the GS screw pattern! Was much effort to find out correct distances and angles! The 'quoted' plates (picture in your posting) were not.

Which M9 screws will you use? Damned limited space!

╗Horst
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