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Supercharging

 
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Blackjack
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Joined: 02 Feb 2011
Posts: 12
Location: Chester UK

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:06 pm    Post subject: Supercharging Reply with quote

Here begins the latest unnecessary modification..... Just bought this on eBay;



I was originally looking for an Aisin AMR 500 from a 600cc Subaru Vivio. The one I was bidding on went for way over 500.

This is from a Nissan Micra SuperTurbo (1000cc) and went for 100. It's much smaller than an Eaton M45 or or M24 but not as small as the AMR500. However, I can play around with pulley size. It currently has an electric clutch but I think I will ditch that and run it full time in a draw through style.

I need to lower the compression of my engine and I'll having some spacers for the bottom of the barrels laser cut. The carb is easy to set up as it is an SU and there's a huge choice of needles.

The real difficulty is sorting out the drive to the supercharger. I think I will relocate everything off the top of the engine and stick the supercharger there. Oil filler/breather can go almost anywhere. Carb no longer needs to sit in it's original position as it now needs to be on the inlet of the supercharger and that can be accomplished with a flexible pipe (may be the hand-bendable stainless stuff). I may be able to put the alternator down low but it might also be possible to run it off the driveshaft or the rear wheel. We shall see.....
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breninfrance
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Joined: 16 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool

gets a thumbs up from me Cool

keep us updated!!
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Harley
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Joined: 26 Nov 2007
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Location: Braidwood - Australia

PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice BJ,

As I am also doing this mod, just the other day started compiling all my info for another 2cv nutter here in Aus who recentley purchased an AMR 300, I thought I would share what I know. This is based on an Aisin AMR300 supercharger using 1 1/4" SU carby.
Although I am running EFI, i'll get to that later.

- The direction the AMR 300 flows is not important as it can be "flipped" in any orientation, the "inlet" and "outlet" flanges can also be swapped and rotated from memory, but I don't think you would need either of them.
- The easiest, and perhaps the best, installation would be to mount it directly on top of the standard manifold, using a sandwich plate, then mount an SU carby directly on top of the supercharger. yes the fuel will be sucked through the S/C which increases it's efficiency, both in boost (by closing up tolerances) and by cooling.
- 1 1/4" is the SU size required: http://www.sw-em.com/su_carbs.htm I haven't looked at what jets will be needed...
- This is the guy to talk to regarding jetting etc, for the SU carby http://hi-flow.com/
- The pulley on the Amr300 can be swapped for a v-belt type.
- 4 important things should really be done when running a S/C, without an intercooler, to reduce intake heat.
    Boost no greater than 7psi +/- 1
    Carby before the S/C
    Cold air induction
    Insulate manifold against block (bakerlite or similar)

- Other things to consider;
    Retarding the timing under boost. 123 evo should be fine, although Wasted spark is not very good for S/C, chance of a backfire is high, which must be avoided.
    Bypass valve, alows the S/C to freewheel at idle and cruise, increasing efficiency.
    Lower compression is better for more boost, 7.5:1. Although even 9 or 9.5:1 is not to high.

- To calculate the pulley size, in simple terms...
Amr300 displaces 300cc air per revolution, 602 2cv displaces 301cc air per rev. So S/C needs to spin 1.5x faster to produce 7psi, or .5 bar of boost.
But there are parasitic losses, s/c efficiencey may only be 75%. The biggest influence on psi is the cam profile, which can be calculated, but at the end of the day a bit of guess work is required...
I have 2 good books on S/Cing that have lots of equations for this type of thing; Supercharged! & Forced Induction This one is highly recommended, lots more practical information.
- Check out the S/C articles on Autospeed.com.au there is a few, lots of good info there, except controlled max boost with a blowoff value, that is a huge waste.
- Here is an interesting article written in the 60's by an aussie racing legend Eldred Norman: http://www.fefcholden.org.au/techinfo/supercharge/norman7.html

- Driving the S/C belt from the flywheel:

by doing this it greatly reduces any clearance issues, we would mount it over the engine, not the gearbox.
- If mounted at the front; as the 'snout' on the AMR300 is very short it would need to sit a long way forward to meet up with the fan pulley, this is then a problem for the clearance of the carby. More of a problem for me as I have channelled my 2cv by 50mm!
- On the 2cv engine it lacks a strong front bearing, unlike the Visa 652, so more load placed at the front could reduce it's life expectancy.
- The oil filler/breather would not need to be relocated.
- Stronger mount can be taken from the gearbox bolts, reducing the stress from the head bolts.
- Some machining is required on the crank case and flywheel to get the pulley to fit. More info to come soon...

Harley
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Blackjack
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Joined: 02 Feb 2011
Posts: 12
Location: Chester UK

PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all that information and links - very useful indeed.

My engine has run from new on a 44 HIF SU and the needle used works well throughout the rev range - it sits on a custom built manifold that already has a plenum chamber.

I'm not using a Citroen exhaust manifold, standard oil filler/breather or alternator so I think that I will have a bit more freedom as to where I can put things.

The supercharger hasn't arrived yet - so I haven't had the opportunity to examine it closely but speaking to a Nissan SuperTurbo enthusiast suggests that it may acually be an Aisin AMR 500. If that's the case then I will be looking to underdrive it and a little bit of belt slippage won't matter too much if it can reduce the loads on the front bearing. I am not looking for huge amounts of boost - I want to make around 50BHP at the wheels so that long hills are no longer an issue. The car currently makes 34 BHP at the wheels so I feel that this is easily acheiveable.

I have had a PM from someone who has a club member with a similar set up who has had his car dynoed at 75 BHP at the wheels.
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Rusty
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Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 141
Location: Voorschoten Netherlands

PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi! Let's blow some dust of this topic!

I'm really curious if you have it running with the amr300 and su carb.

Currently I am looking at the possibility making this myself, (would be a great addition on my pick-up) already I have an option on 2 carbs Harley advises. And I've got some relatives on the big Island, so getting hold of an amr shouldn't be that hard.

I just wonder, is this carb really big enough? I read somewhere that any carb used will perform up to 80% more in a supercharged setup, in that case it will do I guess.

What about the noise/sound of the supercharger? I saw some vids, some of the engines you barely hear that a supercharger is mounted, and some of them you hear a terrible whine coming of it! Maybe because the bearings are worn out?

Greetzzzzzz,

Rusty
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Jasu
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Joined: 30 Sep 2007
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Location: Finland

PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aisin AMR is noisy, because of "straight rotors". Like the traditional roots supercharger.

Eaton is less noisy, thanks to screw -type rotors.

If someone had told how noisy AMR300 is, I wouldn't believe, but when I heard it with own ears...
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Rusty
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Location: Voorschoten Netherlands

PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen following vids, makes me doubt if the one in your video is ok....
These are noisy to, but not even close to what you showed.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xoRbzMKUR2o

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xoRbzMKUR2o

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bwSG9g0M4Fw

Greetzzzzz, Rusty
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Jasu
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Location: Finland

PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rusty wrote:
I have seen following vids, makes me doubt if the one in your video is ok....
These are noisy to, but not even close to what you showed.

Well, some of the noise is because the supercharger isn't connected anywhere, only in- and output ports connected together. Without that, it was even more noisy and when restricted (no matter wich) airflow, most of the noise was gone. Same happened with throttle butterfly, and noise came back when butterfly was opened. As it can be seen, the engine run with carb and not supercharged at this video.

So, I suspect when the carb is removed and all hoses connected correctly, it is noisy only at flat out, at cruising there isn't too much noise anymore..?

Some short testing made, put some gasoline to inlet manifold and started with supercharger connected, with those seconds what engine run, it was almost silent comparing when supercharger wasn't connected.

At some day, when EFI installed, the truth will be found. Or I may be flying with very blown engine... Rolling Eyes
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Jasu
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It didn't exploded...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCOXC-JbJ38

And as I assumed, it is less noisy now, but still the noise is noticeable. Tuned only to keep it running, just wanted to see does it work properly before begin tuning...

Slow, so slow progress with that, but it is so freezing to mess up with fuel at below zero degrees, or at -15 what were some weeks...
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lpgo
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Joined: 10 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Jasu, didn;t know you are building a Compressor 2cv engine..


I had the privilege to drive with the VGS 760 cc compressor engine, just want to mention it wasn;t as noisy as yours.... but is the compressor already connected to the inletmanifold??? otherwise the noise is ok...

here is a video of the VGS compressor....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azH-Lj-N4kc

You should put in a intercooler to bring the airtemp down as much as possible... and a big oilcooler to cool the engine...

Good luck with tuning...
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Jasu
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lpgo wrote:
Hey Jasu, didn;t know you are building a Compressor 2cv engine..

Yes, I am. And have said that, at "the other site" too... Laughing


lpgo wrote:
I had the privilege to drive with the VGS 760 cc compressor engine, just want to mention it wasn;t as noisy as yours.... but is the compressor already connected to the inletmanifold??? otherwise the noise is ok...

here is a video of the VGS compressor....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azH-Lj-N4kc

I have seen that video, and yes it isn't as noisy as in my video. But, there is some issues what makes many things different:

-camera, different cameras pick up different noises
-location of camera
-place where engine is running. Outside of that barn the noise is "disappear" very much, walls of that barn are sheet metal, etc...
-and many other issues

What I'm trying to say, I'm not worrying about that noise, it is quite similar in those two Aisins what I have (broke the other, my mistake), Also at big block Ford, with GMC 6-71, noise of compressor is nearly same, of course the engine noise is somehow different...

lpgo wrote:
You should put in a intercooler to bring the airtemp down as much as possible... and a big oilcooler to cool the engine...

Yes, I have one intercooler waiting to install, and if it doesn't fit, then I just make measurements and order custom made one. And about oil cooler, again from "the other site", you haven't seen photos I made, about removing original oil cooler bypass -valve, and stories about oil thermostat at oil filter and bigger cooler, it will be there, but only when the engine goes to my Dyane...

At these outside temperatures, about 0 degrees and so, it is very hard to get oil temperature even 50 degrees, with about 0,5 bar boost, braking by GSA brakes, without any oil cooler and over half an hour tuning...

lpgo wrote:
Good luck with tuning...

Thanks, that is what I need with this, knowledge doesn't cover everything. I think there is been already some luck, that nothing isn't blown up yet, and all I have broke is one compressor that far...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4nQ0Rf8M6w
There is one other video, about testing the brakes and check some temperatures. Need to install cooling hoses to brakes, they came very hot very fast, I knew that but still it needet to be proven before connecting any cooling...

Maybe some day I drive with that engine, who knows when that happens..?
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Harley
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RE: cooling... Cool
I am going to try and run 7-8psi without an intercooler...
I will achieve this by insulating the intake manifold and the supercharger with teflon spacers to reduce heat soak from the heads.


Since taking these pics I have cross braced the supercharger mount so much that I have shaved off the original alternator mounts on the exhaust where the S/C was mounted, no more exhaust heat soak Cool
I will also run a simple cold air induction.
I will also remotely mount a larger oil cooler back at the firewall with a pipe coming from the back of the fan cowl to feed it cool air.
Now I just need to get back in to my workshop...

Harley
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Wout
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Location: Arendonk, Belgium

PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can insulate your exhaust as well with insulation tape.
It helped a lot with our cars.

Looks cool the compressors!
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