SNAIL ☠ Vintage School 2CV    FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Injecting your 2CV Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next          SNAIL Forum Index -> Technic View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message stefan Dropped Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 257 Location: holland Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:14 pm    Post subject: Jasu wrote: Hey You who have Megasquirt in Your Snail. Can You put Your VE-table and other settings here/PM/e-mail..? Maybe next week (if I get all parts) I'm starting to get Jetronic out and put Megasquirt to my Dyane. Let's see what happens, are pistons melting or does everything just go well... it has no use to put a ve-table here from my car or any other car every engine is a little bit different and i don't know what kind of injectors and sensors you use, so it wouldn't run very well on it. but try to make your car running on megasquirt and you will see if you tune it for an hour it will run great. it is really simple. _________________ Back to top Jasu Dropped Joined: 30 Sep 2007 Posts: 211 Location: Finland Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:43 pm    Post subject: I think it's good way to start if there is nearly same camshaft and valves etc. Of course there is much tuning before it is perfect... _________________ Make it today, tomorrow it's probably illegal... Back to top ami8i Snailer Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Posts: 80 Location: Austria (Graz) Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:31 am    Post subject: Hello Jasu, check PS to study my 'latest' maps (vex files): Closed narrow band loop all over map --> racing guys 'should' enrich the WOT bins! OEM V06/630, OEM manifold but seperated exhaust interference pipe (no manifold warm up - but interference), Suzuki Swift air filter, empty cross box, catalytic convertrs in heating 'bulbs'. Hello Stefan, Of course it makes sense to start with proofed map in a compareable setup. Drive a liitle bit around 'feel/watch' if engine is too rich or lean (more or less) and modify 'ReqFuel'. I guess after 10km cruising it's worth to use MSTeak or the more modern(?) software. @injector: is 'just' the number ReqFuel @temperature sensor: Please tell me the relation betqween temperature senor and injection map. :) You're right that the MegaTune generated table is a good starting point because boring 4pot I-line engines OEM engines are not sensitive in interfrence. Flat twins are more sensitive but not too much to get it running. Side note: I datalogged a couple of 1000 closed loop cruising kilometres but the map was not absolutely reproductive, some bins vary slightly from time to time. --> +/-~2 VE bin values are ok. »Horst PS: left cylinder VE Table RPM Range [12] [ 0 ] = 6 [ 1 ] = 10 [ 2 ] = 15 [ 3 ] = 20 [ 4 ] = 25 [ 5 ] = 30 [ 6 ] = 35 [ 7 ] = 40 [ 8 ] = 46 [ 9 ] = 52 [ 10] = 58 [ 11] = 64 VE Table Load Range (MAP) [12] [ 0 ] = 35 [ 1 ] = 43 [ 2 ] = 51 [ 3 ] = 57 [ 4 ] = 63 [ 5 ] = 68 [ 6 ] = 73 [ 7 ] = 78 [ 8 ] = 82 [ 9 ] = 86 [ 10] = 90 [ 11] = 93 VE Table [ 12][ 12] [ 0] [ 1 ] [ 2 ] [ 3 ] [ 4 ] [ 5 ] [ 6 ] [ 7 ] [ 8 ] [ 9 ] [ 10] [ 11] [ 0 ] = 0 0 6 8 18 48 52 48 53 60 68 70 [ 1 ] = 0 0 40 49 60 64 59 55 63 68 68 70 [ 2 ] = 0 43 52 60 61 65 60 57 66 69 70 73 [ 3 ] = 52 59 59 63 62 65 62 60 67 71 72 72 [ 4 ] = 54 58 62 64 63 67 63 62 68 72 74 72 [ 5 ] = 58 60 64 67 65 68 65 65 69 74 76 72 [ 6 ] = 64 66 68 70 67 69 66 66 71 75 77 73 [ 7 ] = 70 72 72 73 69 71 68 68 73 76 78 73 [ 8 ] = 75 76 76 75 71 72 69 70 75 78 79 73 [ 9 ] = 80 80 78 77 74 74 72 72 77 79 80 73 [ 10] = 84 81 80 78 78 78 76 75 79 81 81 75 [ 11] = 86 82 82 80 78 79 80 82 84 84 84 82 right cylinder VE Table RPM Range [12] [ 0 ] = 6 [ 1 ] = 10 [ 2 ] = 15 [ 3 ] = 20 [ 4 ] = 25 [ 5 ] = 30 [ 6 ] = 35 [ 7 ] = 40 [ 8 ] = 46 [ 9 ] = 52 [ 10] = 58 [ 11] = 64 VE Table Load Range (MAP) [12] [ 0 ] = 35 [ 1 ] = 43 [ 2 ] = 51 [ 3 ] = 57 [ 4 ] = 63 [ 5 ] = 68 [ 6 ] = 73 [ 7 ] = 78 [ 8 ] = 82 [ 9 ] = 86 [ 10] = 90 [ 11] = 93 VE Table [ 12][ 12] [ 0] [ 1 ] [ 2 ] [ 3 ] [ 4 ] [ 5 ] [ 6 ] [ 7 ] [ 8 ] [ 9 ] [ 10] [ 11] [ 0 ] = 0 0 8 10 17 52 47 51 66 69 69 0 [ 1 ] = 0 16 39 47 57 60 56 55 62 66 69 56 [ 2 ] = 0 46 52 59 60 62 58 56 65 68 71 73 [ 3 ] = 47 54 57 62 61 64 60 59 67 71 73 73 [ 4 ] = 51 56 63 64 62 65 62 61 68 72 75 74 [ 5 ] = 54 58 65 66 64 66 63 64 69 73 76 74 [ 6 ] = 60 64 68 68 65 67 65 66 70 74 76 74 [ 7 ] = 65 70 73 71 68 69 68 68 72 75 77 74 [ 8 ] = 68 73 75 74 70 71 70 69 75 77 77 74 [ 9 ] = 71 76 77 75 74 72 71 71 77 77 78 74 [ 10] = 75 77 77 77 77 76 76 75 79 79 80 74 [ 11] = 77 77 77 78 78 79 80 81 83 82 80 77 _________________ »Ami8i Break http://megasquirt-de.serviceline.ch/success/index0001.htm » BX14E.CO.2 Cruiser Break Back to top Harley Dropped Joined: 26 Nov 2007 Posts: 394 Location: Braidwood - Australia Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:16 pm    Post subject: After much construction and research i have nearly completed my Megasquirt EFI! MS I v3.0 with Relay board Injectors 0-280-150-773 Hyundai S-coupe 14.25lbs/hr @ 3Bar, Running at 2bar = 11.6lbs/hr mounted on GM injector bungs. Original manifold with some basic porting and exhaust crossover cut. Throttle Body from Daewoo Matiz 38mm Jecs External fuel pump, running 5/16 copper fuel line. Saab FIdle valve, yet to be operating. Buell Cylinder Head Temp sensor. Only Photo so far... Got it started today and will tune it tomorrow Harley _________________ Check out my Dinosaur www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPF_uU61als Spot my 2cv www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zoq68CPLq4M Back to top ami8i Snailer Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Posts: 80 Location: Austria (Graz) Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:51 pm    Post subject: Harley wrote: Injectors ..... mounted on GM injector bungs. Congrats Harley! I'm interested in your GM bungs (stainless steel?) on 2CV manifold (mild steel). Wold be really fine iy you post a picture. Harley wrote: and exhaust crossover cut. Why? Harley wrote: Buell Cylinder Head Temp sensor. Price? »Horst _________________ »Ami8i Break http://megasquirt-de.serviceline.ch/success/index0001.htm » BX14E.CO.2 Cruiser Break Back to top Jasu Dropped Joined: 30 Sep 2007 Posts: 211 Location: Finland Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:37 pm    Post subject: ami8i wrote: Harley wrote: and exhaust crossover cut. Why? Don't need to heat throttle body... ami8i wrote: Harley wrote: Buell Cylinder Head Temp sensor. Price? Also interested that... Try to get some time and go to dyno with Dyane and make whole day for tuning Megasquirt... I have it running, but I'm not satisfied jet... And its too hard way to tune it by driving with narrow band lambda than in dyno with wide band... _________________ Make it today, tomorrow it's probably illegal... Back to top ami8i Snailer Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Posts: 80 Location: Austria (Graz) Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:46 pm    Post subject: Jasu, MPI or SPI? Tuning SPI without interference tube is awful (accelerating enrichment). I cracked pipe off manifold --> no heating up TB BUT nice torque for cruising! Buy a wideband+controller (150-200€) and tune your EFI by yourself. How many dyno tuning sessions you could do for this price? Maybe you want to try another air filter or anything else next year.... »Horst _________________ »Ami8i Break http://megasquirt-de.serviceline.ch/success/index0001.htm » BX14E.CO.2 Cruiser Break Back to top backfire Dropped Joined: 14 Nov 2007 Posts: 346 Location: NL, 's-Hertogenbosch Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:48 pm    Post subject: Nice work Harley. _________________ 2CV, with Visa turbo charged Back to top Harley Dropped Joined: 26 Nov 2007 Posts: 394 Location: Braidwood - Australia Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:30 am    Post subject: I guess they are more like mounts than bungs... Aluminium bolted onto manifold, shooting at the back of the valve. $24 each from www.powerflowinjection.com/ I got Buell CHT for $20, retail is $35 I made a small Aluminium plate that slots in between the cylinder heads with a bolt tapped to secure it. Sensor sits nicely against the exhaust outlet.I Quote: Don't need to heat throttle body... Correct but i did replace the alternator side with steel rod for rigidity I am also running JAW. Thanks very much to Horst, Jasu and Lars for your pics and advice, they where all very handy. Harley _________________ Check out my Dinosaur www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPF_uU61als Spot my 2cv www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zoq68CPLq4M Back to top Jasu Dropped Joined: 30 Sep 2007 Posts: 211 Location: Finland Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:02 am    Post subject: ami8i wrote: Jasu, MPI or SPI? MPI. It sounds great for other people... And sequential injection... No money for anything now, unless somebody buys my H-D Trike... But this dyno, it's almost free to use because I helped somebody near there with their electrical problems... _________________ Make it today, tomorrow it's probably illegal... Back to top Harley Dropped Joined: 26 Nov 2007 Posts: 394 Location: Braidwood - Australia Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:46 am    Post subject: I am having trouble with cold start My cranking pulse widths end up beeing around 21 @ -40c and 5 @ 77c I always have to tweak them in cold conditions, 3c. Idle PW is around 3.2. The Saab fast idle valve is usless, when it's open it revs the crappa out of the engine and i can only get it started when it is closed What are the other squirters running as a idle valve? Car is idling beautifully and low speed, 2nd & 3rd gear driving around town is GREAT, but at WOT on the highway it just feels like it is running out of breath and not revving. I will try bumping up the Fuel pressure, as it drops down to 1.5bar when car is running, cheap fuel reg!?. I have played around with the VE at this range 5000 to 6000 @ 90kpa with around 110 enrichment with some results but i still can't nail it. Any ideas guys? Cheers Harley _________________ Check out my Dinosaur www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPF_uU61als Spot my 2cv www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zoq68CPLq4M Back to top Jasu Dropped Joined: 30 Sep 2007 Posts: 211 Location: Finland Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:11 pm    Post subject: I don't have any idle valve, I warm up engine by "manual fast idle" (rod between throttle pedal and front seat ) How You made fuel lines? Do You have big enough lines, or surge tank..? I think fuel pump doesn't get enough fuel, there is something wrong in fuel lining if it's losing fuel pressure when "nailing" it... I haven't that problem, even with 3 bar fuel pressure, but I have 10mm supply from tank to pump and 8mm return to tank and 8mm lines all the way... It could be also the cheap regulator, but also it can be weak (old, if You have old one) fuelpump..? _________________ Make it today, tomorrow it's probably illegal... Back to top ami8i Snailer Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Posts: 80 Location: Austria (Graz) Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:40 pm    Post subject: Hello Harley, thank you for posting details! @injector mounts: very well done - looks very professional! Please tell me more about the source of the bungs/mounts. Which GM engine needs such unique injector bungs (and why)? I can't find anything at powerflowinjection.com, their subsites are wrong or what ever. Please tell me the part number of the 'bungs'. Is the fuel T piece also of power....com? Is there no additional bolt needed so that fuel pressure is not able to blow off the 'rail'? I hope your 'free' fuel line does not stress the top of the injectors so that they break one day. @CHT: Thanks for details, I guess it's the perfect place or A/C engines! @interference pipe: Quote: i did replace the alternator side with steel rod for rigidity Hmm, what are you telling us? I can't see the relation between removed interfence pipe, heated TB and rigidity. On Visa engines (cracked manifold) is a small angle iron which fixes manifold (below carb) on engine block (starter screw). @Cold start: I have no current MS datas here, so I can't tell you my current numbers. I tweaked the numbers to get the engine as lean as possible AND my NB tells me that A/F is slightly rich. I let ignition=on for a minute or so to heat up the O2 sensor and recorded the datas, while closed loop was also activated during warm up period. Later I swapped to open loop enriched just a bit to ensure slight rich mixture. I wondered that you use the 'silly' fast idle valve. :) Cross section is much to wide for a tiny 602ccm engine. You could minimize cross section inserting a smaller (vacuum) hose or more elegant a nozzle with known cross section. I've got a vaccum hose + a small air valve of a Suzuki/Daihatsu (late 1980ties) engine. Originally this Nippon Denso parts were designed to open/close vacuum hoses for car coal cnister and similar stuff. On cold days one valve is not ehough to provide ~800rpm, but my engine does not need more than 500-600rpm not to starve. When I reach fist signal lights after 1km the engine warmed up enough to provide round idling at low rews. @warmed up engine: My PW on warm engine is 2.6....2.9ms @800....900rpm. What's about DC at WOT and high revs? Do you hit the 100% limit? Maybe your PWM settings are not optimzed for low-Z injectors? 1.5bar is rather few for MPI injectors. Poor SPI fuel pumps are not able to provide more than 1.5 bar (at 0 flow!). Which fuel pump do you use? I don't think the fuel reguklator is bad, maybe wrong. :) Don't hesitate to exceed VE pins of 100 or 110%. If your basic setting (req fuel) is not absolutely ok, that's the way to go. Later you could change req fuel AND VE table by mathematics (MT feature?). @JAW: What says JAW at WOT and warmed up engine? If fuel mixture is <14.7 it should be ok and your target map should be ok. Does WB sensors need hot gases? Maybe you could tune warm up better with WB+JAW - I haven't looked for that since I've no WB. »Horst _________________ »Ami8i Break http://megasquirt-de.serviceline.ch/success/index0001.htm » BX14E.CO.2 Cruiser Break Back to top Harley Dropped Joined: 26 Nov 2007 Posts: 394 Location: Braidwood - Australia Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:20 pm    Post subject: Thanks for the response JAsu & Horst I just completed a 800km trip! and was able to tune it on the run. After a night of fuel filling my dreams i reaproached my tuning, turned the fuel pressure up to 3bar and remapped me VE tables. I ended up richening the WOT to 12.5:1 which made a difference, 93% on VE. My PW at idle = 2.7 Duty cycle at WOT hits about 56% - 66% So i am happy with these results and will continue to refine tuning. Quote: Hmm, what are you telling us? I can't see the relation between removed interfence pipe, heated TB and rigidity. On Visa engines (cracked manifold) is a small angle iron which fixes manifold (below carb) on engine block (starter screw). My manifold has a ridgid pipe replacing the exhaust crossover so that the alternator dosen't put excess strain on my manifold bolts: @ Horst GM injector bungs have a part number on them, i will look them up in the morning... Quote: Is the fuel T piece also of power....com? Is there no additional bolt needed so that fuel pressure is not able to blow off the 'rail'? I hope your 'free' fuel line does not stress the top of the injectors so that they break one day. This is a gas fitting my step father machined out for me, it is now different, as it terminates at injector. I have a small grub screw on the side which holds it firm. Here is how i run my fuel line: Fig: A is how i am currently setup, this is done to get equal pressure to each injector. Fig: B is how it could be better, constant flow above the injector to keep it cool, as they sit close to the exhaust! I have disconnected the Fidle valve... was a waste of time... yes it was definately to BIG. Quote: And sequential injection... Jasu tell me how you setup your sequential injection... Cheers Harley _________________ Check out my Dinosaur www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPF_uU61als Spot my 2cv www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zoq68CPLq4M Back to top ami8i Snailer Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Posts: 80 Location: Austria (Graz) Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:32 pm    Post subject: Hello Harley, @PW: good to hear that max DC is <85% AND idling is smooth! @alternator: aha, thanks for picture. I've seen some removed exhaust crossovers but none of them had thought on the alternator belt + vibration stress. I think the OEM stress caused on different heating and shape of exhaust and inlet manifold is high too. In this momnet I have the idea that this could be the reason why Aluminum Visa cylinders has a cracked manifold. @GM injector bungs: Thanks for looking. Maybe it's also on the bill, at least their part number. Thanks for T piece details. Nice idea! @fuel line: I'd prefer Fig A system too but injection systems like mine (based on parts from 80ties to 90ties) needs return lines. I'm afraid that the fuel in the dead end lines will be heated up too much. I did it like Fig C shows. :) Hello Jasu, I wanted also to ask you for sequential injection (but forgot). :) 'Current' MS1 codes aren't able to do seq inj. IMHO it's not difficult to code for engines with 1 or 2 cylinders, but none of the assembler guys (most of them fire 4 or more pots) seem to be interested in. 'All' you need is a tooth wheel (for example 36-1) a cam shaft sensor (2CV ignition output shaft) and an unused 8x8 map which tells the injector when PW should be finished before(!) inlet valve opens. I guess calculating in milliseconds is better than degrees crank shaft. I'd be really happy to help with algorithm ideas and testing if anyone is willing to code seq injection for 2CVs! »Horst EDIT: Forgot the picture (Fig. C): _________________ »Ami8i Break http://megasquirt-de.serviceline.ch/success/index0001.htm » BX14E.CO.2 Cruiser Break Last edited by ami8i on Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:33 pm; edited 1 time in total Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         SNAIL Forum Index -> Technic All times are GMT + 2 Hours Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next Page 4 of 5   Jump to: Select a forum SNAIL forum----------------General chatMeetingTechnicYour ride Sell/Buy----------------For SaleWanted  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group. Hosted by phpBB.BizHat.com